Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Attorneys Sarah Hink and Elizabeth Stevenson return from a hiatus on the Exit Strategy podcast to discuss why custody is often the hardest part of divorce and separation, including the emotional challenge of sharing time with children. They explain that in the North Carolina counties where they practice, courts often start from a 50/50 assumption tied to the child’s best interests and a relationship with both parents, then look for reasons to deviate such as domestic violence, substance abuse, mental health concerns, lack of involvement, or inconsistency. They cover tools like temporary arrangements, tiered custody schedules with treatment requirements, reunification therapy, custody/parent fitness evaluations, guardians ad litem, parent coordinators, and parallel parenting. They warn against false abuse claims, alienation, and putting children in the middle, noting records can follow families and even be found online later.
00:00 Welcome Back Intro
00:20 Why Custody Gets Heated
00:43 Facing 50 50 Reality
01:57 Courts Start at 50 50
02:40 Give Them a Chance
03:32 Custody Can Change
04:00 Tiered Plans and Reunification
05:35 Evaluations and Expert Help
06:55 Parallel Parenting Tools
07:31 Kids Feel the Conflict
08:57 Legal Custody Decision Making
09:42 Third Parties Can Sue
10:11 Domestic Violence Impact
11:10 False Claims Backfire
11:56 Online Records and Kids Testifying
13:23 Parental Alienation Consequences
14:08 Honesty and Realistic Outcomes
16:08 Wrap Up and Final Thoughts
Creators and Guests
What is Ex-it Strategy?
Your no bullsh$t guide to divorce with experienced attorneys from New Direction Family Law and guests and professionals who have been there. Unfiltered discussions to help you move from victim to victorious and from bitter to better.
82 - Exit Strategy - Custody
===
[00:00:00]
Sarah J. Hink: cause children, they pick up on that stress. They understand Mommy just talked to daddy and something didn't go well. Where they're always mad at each other. Is it my fault?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. And you gotta remember, and judges, are we getting to understand or have understood that, that you may say, well. We don't, you know, it's between him and me.
It's not a, you know, we don't do it in front of the kids. Well, the kids know whether you think they know or not,
Sarah J. Hink: Welcome to the Exit Strategy podcast. I'm Sarah Hink, attorney partner at New Direction Family Law.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: And I'm Elizabeth Stevenson, attorney and partner at New Direction Family Law.
And Sarah and I have been doing this podcast for five years now.
Sarah J. Hink: I don't know, I don't,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: seems like no long to, nobody knows anymore. We
Sarah J. Hink: just, we're just coming back from a hiatus
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: we have. But, um, what's top of mind for us, um, as always, and when you're talking [00:01:00] about divorce and separation is custody. 'cause that's always.
A big, big issue for folks that come and see us and, um, I think it's more of the one that has the most minefield sometime.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's what people can fight about the most. Um,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: think, um, you have kids, it's the thing you for the most part, care about the most.
Sarah J. Hink: You know? Yes, for the most part.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Yeah.
Sarah J. Hink: And it's thinking that you don't have children when the anticipation of sharing them and only seeing them half the time.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: That's a good point. I hadn't thought about that.
Sarah J. Hink: Which, which is really hard to wrap your mind around.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: It is. 'cause I was, um. I got separated when John Thorn, my son was two, you know, and, um, I remember we did a, we did the generic.
Mm-hmm. You get Monday, Tuesday, I get Wednesday, Thursday, and we alternate. So it was 50 50, but. Um, I remember like going in his room and laying in his bed mm-hmm. And smelling his pillow and crying. It's really hard, you know, but it got better.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: You know, and then, then I learned to enjoy like, having two days off, you know?
Yeah. Or, or not being on a [00:02:00] hundred percent didn't mean I love, you know, you get over that guilt. Didn't love him when he last. But you know, it's, it is hard.
Sarah J. Hink: It is really hard. And so it's understandable that people fight so hard for custody.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Absolutely. And, but well hopefully for the right reasons, but sometimes not.
But we'll
Sarah J. Hink: talk about that. No, that's exactly right. Like that's when you come to us and like, I understand that, but let's think about sharing 50 50. Like can you wrap your mind around that? Right. Do you understand that there's a benefit to that?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right?
Sarah J. Hink: I ask them, okay, well, is Soandso a good mom? Is Soandso a good father?
Like, do you really, can you really say that they're not
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: right? And sometimes you really can say they're, they're not. Yeah. And there's some reasons for that, but. A lot, you know, especially in where we practice, um, in the counties, we practice in a lot of times that the, the starting point is 50 50 and then it's our job to move judges off of that, where it used to be sort of the opposite.
Mm-hmm. But there is no. Um, preferential treatment for, for mothers anymore. Really. I mean, there may be, there's whispers
Sarah J. Hink: about
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: certain judges every once
Sarah J. Hink: in a while,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: but, but, but the law is not like that. The, the starting point is what is the [00:03:00] best interest of this child? And the judges start with, the best interest of this child is have a relationship with both parents.
Sarah J. Hink: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: And, and they start with thinking that's equal.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: You know? And then, and then show me why that was, why that shouldn't happen.
Sarah J. Hink: Right.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: You know, and, and my, my. What I say to clients a lot of times is you want the other parent to be a good parent, right? You want them to step up. And so if you can and you feel comfortable, if it's a temporary arrangement, which is good,
Sarah J. Hink: mm-hmm.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Um, give 'em a chance, give 'em a chance to, as we say, hang themself. You know, hopefully they'll step up, but if they don't, then, you
Sarah J. Hink: know, so, okay. Well, they never take, you know. Bobby to the doctor's appointments. Well,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: because you've never given them the opportunity to.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. Do you like hijack that situation?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Or you may have been a stay-at-home Mom and I have had judges, like you have said, we've said before, well, that's not how it works anymore. That's not where we are, we're not together. You're not a stay-at-home mom anymore. So that doesn't matter to me that much. Right. But is is what a judge will say
Sarah J. Hink: and like, what is, what is.
[00:04:00] What is he gonna do on the days that Bobby needs to go to soccer? Well, he's gonna figure it out. He's gonna take 'em.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: That's right. Or if he doesn't, then the judge is gonna take notice of that. Yeah. When you, and you can mon and custody's always modifiable. That's the other thing. Mm-hmm. Too, you have to remember it's not, um, forever impermanent, but you know, you gotta have a really big, and some reasons are.
That there are some mental health issues or there are some substance abuse issues that the other party is not taking care of. And so you can put some provisions in place or the court can to get them help to take care of those, you know, and see if they will do what the, what you've agreed to do. Like, um, doing a tiered custody schedule.
Mm-hmm. That you're gonna go to AA or you're gonna go to counseling. For substance abuse, um, outpatient, and then we're gonna put you on a sober link where if it's an alcohol, you're gonna blow into that or get a health follicle test. If you do all that, you do what you're supposed to do and you get better, then you can move to tier two and you get more time.
Sarah J. Hink: Right. And that's the same thing. If there's been a stress and like a bonding [00:05:00] or a relationship where a parent has. Been around that much?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Correct.
Sarah J. Hink: Are they gonna just show up and get 50 50? No. No, they're not.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: And it depends on the age of the child.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Too.
Sarah J. Hink: And the court's gonna understand that that's a relationship that needs to be built up.
Correct. There'll be another one of those, like tier one, tier two, or even starting at reunification therapy. Correct. To even just. Introduce this person who might be a stranger at that time.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right.
Sarah J. Hink: And that does happen. They just come back. And I know that's really scary for a parent who, who's had complete control and custody.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: It is. 'cause you, it's like, where have you been? Yeah. And I can understand the animosity there a hundred
Sarah J. Hink: percent.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Especially to come in and say, well, well I want 50 50. It's like, no, yeah,
Sarah J. Hink: no,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: we're not doing that.
Sarah J. Hink: And they take the perspective of the child into consideration too, and how that's gonna affect them.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. '
Sarah J. Hink: cause children need stability. They need. People that be familiar with 'em. Like they're not gonna, if the judge gives you every other weekend when he really wanted 50 50 in the temporary order and then you just don't show up for your every other weekend. Weekend, you ain't gonna get 50 50 [00:06:00] next time.
Right. Right. If, if you
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: don't take advantage of what you've given
Sarah J. Hink: them. Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: And you're not gonna get more.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. We need a pe, see people, parents that are gonna be consistent. Right. And take that parenting role very seriously.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: I agree. And sometimes you have to. You know, sometimes you would want, um, like an ex, you know, get a, a parent, a parent, a parent fitness evaluation mm-hmm.
Where a professional therapist, PhD person, um, determines, you know, what, not to d have mental illness per se, but what's your fitness as a parent? What do you, what do you have the ability to do those sorts of things that can help too. Yeah. Or custody evaluation.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: May be needed.
Sarah J. Hink: Custody evaluation. I have cases that have those going on right now.
It's, it's important. And the judges really like that. Really like that because the judge, like we keep saying, is only with you for a day or two days if you have a really long, you know, permanent custody hearing. Right. But still like. They're, are they paying attention the full time, first of all, and
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: no.
'cause oh, let me take a break 'cause I just got this [00:07:00] emergency. And then they come back and they have to come back to you. They got their
Sarah J. Hink: laptop open up there and they're looking at it. I don't know what they're ever
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: looking at. Oh, we don't know what they're looking at. But,
Sarah J. Hink: but to have the professional who has spent hours and hours and hours interviewing your family, the children, you, your, your ex spouse.
Write something up about custody and recommendations. I mean, the judge is gonna,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: they don't take notice of that. The
Sarah J. Hink: judge gonna do that. I mean, the flip side of that is that it costs a lot of money.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: It does. And not everybody can do that. Mm-hmm. But if you can and you think it's important, I think it's a, I think it's a good thing.
Mm-hmm. You know, to have done. And then there are, um, guardian ad litem, which you've done some podcasts on, that could be helpful in some cases too. Um, parent coordinators, if you have a high conflict case where you're unable. There are some people that just cannot co-parent and they call it parallel parenting.
Mm-hmm. Where they just, they're in their own silo.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: You know, you take care of them when they're with you and I'll take care of them. They're with you. And then we don't really
Sarah J. Hink: talk much.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: If we do, it's gonna be through our Family Wizard and. We're [00:08:00] never the two shall meet, you know? Right. And, and that may be just how it is
Sarah J. Hink: and sometimes that's better than,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: than being
Sarah J. Hink: communication.
I agree. 'cause children, they pick up on that stress. They understand Mommy just talked to daddy and something didn't go well. Where they're always mad at each other. Is it my fault?
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. And you gotta remember, and judges, are we getting to understand or have understood that, that you may say, well. We don't, you know, it's between him and me.
It's not a, you know, we don't do it in front of the kids. Well, the kids know whether you think they know or not, they know when you do an exchange that everybody's all tied up.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Nobody's talking to each other. Or you're at a basketball game. Yeah. Don't go sit on, you know, you're sitting on the other side.
They know.
Sarah J. Hink: They know
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: they do.
Sarah J. Hink: It's really bad. I have some cases where that's really bad.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Yeah. And you, it breaks your heart. But you, I didn't live their li you know, I didn't live with them. I don't know what went on and I understand. The animosity, but at some point everybody's gotta, we gotta figure out a way to help this family move forward.
Sarah J. Hink: You're the grownup. Like Right. Put together. Just act decently and friendly. And cordial when you're in front of the, the children and that's it.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right? You can do [00:09:00] that for the five minutes it takes you to exchange.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. Grow up. It's not about you. And it just goes back to like. People's tendency to be really selfish sometimes.
Okay. And they say that they love their children, which they probably do, but they don't act like that.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: You gotta like put the effort. Gotta put the effort.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. You're like damaging your little children that you claim to love so much. Right. Get it together.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. [00:10:00] Can you imagine it's hard for us as adults to be a kid and that you're going, they're going through it too.
Yeah. So anything you can do to help them would be beneficial. And I know it's hard to set your own. Issues aside, but that's where you go to your therapist or your counselor and you deal with that.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. So co-parenting is, uh, something that the judge takes into consideration mm-hmm. When determining the best interest of the minor children.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. And in term, determining if you, you know, even legal custody. If y'all can't co-parent and you can't talk to each other, how are you gonna make decisions together?
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: So be careful because they may give the decision making power to the other party.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: You know, because you can't come to an agreement.
Sarah J. Hink: Right.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Or leave it up to a parent coordinator who's gonna make that decision [00:11:00] for you.
Sarah J. Hink: You're paying.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: You paid, you're paid
Sarah J. Hink: to make that decision for another person, another person to pay for
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: in your life. You
Sarah J. Hink: know, it's just like, how far are you gonna take this? Yeah. For all 18 years of your child's life.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Some people have, some
Sarah J. Hink: people have got long time clients for sure. Sure
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: do. They're just, just, you know, you gotta figure out what's important in the long run.
Sarah J. Hink: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: I think in that way, and, and you have to remember too, that the parents aren't the only people that can file a claim for custody. In North Carolina, I mean, the statute reads anybody can
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: You know, has a relationship with, with a child. I've had. Aunts, uncles, grandparents, all of that, you know Yeah. Have, have come in and once they're a party, they're always a party, you know? And so they're gonna be in your lives too.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Unless you two parents can work it out and get it together.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Kinda thing.
Sarah J. Hink: Very true. And something else that the courts have to consider when determining best interest is domestic violence. Yes.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Absolutely.
Sarah J. Hink: Um, so that's something that you would wanna talk to your attorney about. And if you need to put on [00:12:00] evidence of that, but domestic violence, especially in front of the minor children right, is not good.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: No, it's not good.
Sarah J. Hink: No. So that, that's might swing it from a 50 50 as well. Um, and courts order things like anger management classes Right, or going to the dose program, which is very intensive. It
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: is, it's
Sarah J. Hink: um, it's long. How long it is, but it can be ordered.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. And they, and they can put custody provisions in a domestic violence protective order.
They're only good for a year, but, you know, or, and they're gonna put provisions in there about how you communicate and what you're gonna do. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's, and it's gonna, when it goes down to family court. Again, that's always gonna be in your file. Yeah. It's always gonna come up. It's always gonna be important to the judge about what happened and did it involve the kids?
And that's gonna be a factor.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And also what not to do is to claim there's domestic violence. When there's not domestic violence. There's violence that does happen as well.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: It does. Or child abuse. Mm-hmm. Or anything like that. And so that's [00:13:00] why those professionals are out there. To hopefully if those kinds of allegations are made and they're not truthful, that that, you know, yeah.
That becomes an issue.
Sarah J. Hink: CPS will typically automatically get involved if there's children and domestic violence is filed. Correct. And I've had CPS records come back and say that they have concerns that mom is not being truthful.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. Right.
Sarah J. Hink: Or, you know, it's gonna say that on the records and the judge is gonna see
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: that, see that?
So, yeah. So don't. Don't think that that's a, that's a good mechanism for you to get. Yeah, it's more, it's not more than 50 50 custody. 'cause it al it'll always come out in the end. And that's
Sarah J. Hink: not what's good for the kids either. It's not.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: It's not.
Sarah J. Hink: Because these days everything is online. Like everything is public.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Oh, that's
Sarah J. Hink: true.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: That is absolutely true. They can go as soon as they get older. They can in the ePortal and they can read all the allegations that are in there.
Sarah J. Hink: They can just Google their parents' name and the court cases gonna got brought
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: up, gonna pop up. That's right.
Sarah J. Hink: So every nasty thing you put about dad in your custody complaint or in your motion right, they're gonna read.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. And if you put, you know, Joe, Joey said [00:14:00] this, and your allegations in your complaint, the only way you're gonna get in when Joey said is to put Joey on the stand and have him testify.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. We want little Joey there.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: And we don't want that. You know? Yeah.
Sarah J. Hink: There's sometimes where,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: there's sometimes where I just
Sarah J. Hink: older children.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Yeah. But, um, I had older kids come in and, and go in the back and talk to a judge. Um, and one, it was very, um. They were like 16, 15, and it was very powerful for them to finally be able to have their voice heard and the judge heard them. Mm-hmm. And modified the order. But if mom had said, no, I don't want 'em to go back and talk to the judge, the only way I was gonna get it on is to put that child on the stand.
And I wa And then you gotta make a decision. Do you wanna do that?
Sarah J. Hink: Sometimes judges
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: don't like that. Don't with that either. I mean, they're gonna punish the, the other parent, like, what's wrong with you, ma'am? Why do, why do you want this child to come up here and do that?
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. I don't think judges, like in general, children coming to talk to 'em.
Um,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: but sometimes it's, you know, it's
Sarah J. Hink: understandable, but they don't like it.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: No, no. I agree. And I don't like it. I don't like bringing kids in, but sometimes they're very adamant of, [00:15:00] yes, I want to. Yeah, and I need to. Okay. And
Sarah J. Hink: we also understand the dynamics at home, that there might be a parent that's.
Alienating the child from the other parent and saying things and, Hey, if you go to the court and say this about daddy,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: correct,
Sarah J. Hink: I'm gonna, you know, buy you a new whatever.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. And that's not unheard of.
Sarah J. Hink: Absolutely
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: not.
No.
Sarah J. Hink: That crazy things happen.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: They they do. And people, desperate people do desperate things
Sarah J. Hink: and they lie.
And a lot of times it comes out, it
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: does.
Sarah J. Hink: We figure it out and judges will not be happy. I mean, there's cases where alienation attempts were so bad that the judges just take custody away from that parent that's doing that. Right. Right. And give it sole custody to the other parent.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right.
Sarah J. Hink: Because looking at people that are gonna follow court orders, right.
People that are not gonna have those types of behavior.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right.
Sarah J. Hink: That's also what the judge is gonna consider.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. And I had a case a long time ago, but the. Before it was, my client was not truthful in the fir, in the first temporary hearing, it was custody hearing and the judge was there for a really long time and you were [00:16:00] assigned to the judge for the life of your case.
And judges, some judges have memories that you would not believe. And every time we had a hearing, he remembered that, that you was not truthful and never believed this client ever again. And it nothing ever good came with that.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah, I mean. It's not good for your kids at the end of the day.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: It's not
Sarah J. Hink: like if the other parent's a decent parent,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: then you got don't.
Don't swing at any other
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah, don't, don't lie. No. Don't cause your child unnecessary stress too.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right.
Sarah J. Hink: And think that then there's something wrong with Daddy or something wrong with mommy.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Right. Right.
Sarah J. Hink: That's not true.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: I agree. And you know, and. People get in your, all your friends get in your ear, well, this happened when, you know, when I went to court, this is what happened.
That's not what's gonna happen necessarily in your case.
Sarah J. Hink: No, go. Go to therapy. Go to counseling, work through it,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: right?
Sarah J. Hink: That in most cases are gonna be 50 50 unless there's domestic violence, drugs, alcohol to an extreme right. Um, or just someone that is lacking the [00:17:00] maturity to parents. Right,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: right. Or hasn't been
Sarah J. Hink: consistent,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: present and is inconsistent.
I mean, those are the, those are the things you have to think about. Other than that, more than likely it's gonna be 50 50. Yeah.
Sarah J. Hink: They might be an asshole, but they can still be an okay. Parent's.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Exactly. Right.
Sarah J. Hink: Well, that's what we hope for. I hope he's just an asshole to me and uh, he's okay with the
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: kids, but he's okay with the kids.
Sarah J. Hink: It's maybe a t-shirt. Yeah. And maybe he, maybe an
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: asshole, but he is a good parent.
Sarah J. Hink: He gets married to a little Tiffany and maybe Tiffany's just a happy woman and they'll be okay over there.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Yeah. And sometimes that's a good thing, you know? Yeah. Then they have someone to help them. And sometimes it's helpful.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. I mean, a lot of people say, oh, well he wasn't interested in the kids until he remarried. I'm like, well, yeah,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: yeah. But now he is so let's be happy about that.
Sarah J. Hink: Yeah, yeah,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: yeah.
Sarah J. Hink: That's what's good for the kids,
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: I get. I agree.
Sarah J. Hink: That's all the, the shit we got.
Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW: Well it, that's some shit.
[00:18:00]